Dean Martin was so slimy

I'm so glad I wasn't around when he was big - all the movies, TV shows and records. He must have really been in people's faces for years.

YUCK!

Here he is being all goofy and charming and mugging at the camera. Crazy kooky guy!

and obviously reading all the lyrics from an autocue.

I have never seen him in anything (before my time) but he looks like he stinks of cigarettes and old whisky.

Is it me or is Lainie imitating Streisand's speaking voice here? "I'm going to meet your cheel-dren." '

Lainie was from Brooklyn as well.

I don't think he was that slimy it was just a schtick. He was a charming boxer and odd job man who sang when he was young.

It was an act. My partner knew Dean Martin - along with the other Rat Packers - who were friends and patients of his dad. He says he never saw Dean Martin drunk like this - except during one of their shows.

[quote]Is it me or is Lainie imitating Streisand's speaking voice here?

She attended Brooklyn's Erasmus Hall High School with Barbra Streisand, whom she would later understudy.

Let’s ask the Golddiggers!

R6 It has been established that more often than not, his glass while performing was actually Martinelli's apple juice. It was just an act, because that was what was expected of him, like Marylin Monroe playing dumb. After his son Dean Paul Martin died in a military training flight in the 1980s, however he started really drinking heavily until he died in 1995.

I don't find him slimy at all. To me he was just a cool guy, with a playboy persona. He and Sammy Davis, Jr. were the real talents in the Rat Pack.

I think he was very talented but was kind of lazy. Sometimes he really comes through but when he didn't care he coasted and it shows.

Whenever I think of Dean Martin, I think of "Angels in Vegas".....and how dismayed & disgusted I was by the idea that Sabrina would be attracted to his wrinkly, old ass. I was 12. (and I still feel that way)

He hated Jerry Lewis, so that's reason enough to love him.

My partner was especially close to Joey Bishop and Sammy Davis. His dad put Ava Garner back together after she was beaten up as a favor to Sinatra and he lived with Ava in London for a summer, he got to know David Niven then. Sinatra used to fly my partner around in his plane. Sinatra did not take much notice of him. He hated Jerry Lewis who was mean to him and used to insult him because he was fat.

Tell us all about this Ava Garner.

As a young kid I lived for the Dean Martin celebrity roasts.

Was this George C who broke Ava apart? Was this during the making of The Bible? How did he not get his legs broken?

That’s just the way 50s-60s pop entertainers were, OP. And it’s not just them. Pop culture in general in America was goofy af.

I mean, have you ever seen Elvis or other musical star movies with dance routines? The kind of thing Ann Margaret was doing onscreen? Talk about lurid wackadoodleism.

Thank god for the late 60s, that’s all I can say.

Years ago we posted many stories about him and Ava in the DataLounge. My partner really liked her and it was just him and Ava in the house. She had friends over for dinner and that's how he met David Niven and others. He has nothing to say except good things about Ava - actually mostly boring things. His father was very close to her and Frank. His parents sent him to school in Cambridge for a short time and then he worked in London for a while. I was surprised he was so close to Sammy. There was a movie or special on his life and he just started talking about him. Joey Bishop was very close to him right up until the last year of his life. He sort of had adopted him. Joey had him as a guest on all of this TV shows - I mean he watched them from backstage.

Why did Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin hate each other?

[quote]That’s just the way 50s-60s pop entertainers were, OP.

All that canned laughter and applause in the clip.

I am with Bootsy Gumdrop. Always found that ring-a-ding Rat Pack schtick kind of embarrassing.

Dean Martin hated Jerry Lewis because Jerry wanted attention all the time and Dean was a stone-cold, hardened loner who needed no one and answered to no one. He got tired of Jerry and breaking up the partnership was his idea.

I read this book on Dean back in the fall and would recommend it to anyone wanting an unbiased portrayal of him. A real page-turner, to say the least. I've always considered him the epitome of cool, and I'm 40. Most on here know, I'm sure, but it was written into his contract for 'The Dean Martin Show' that he didn't have to rehearse. They'd give him outline tapes he could listen to as he golfed, and then he'd show up to tape the show and that was it. The book also expounds on the Martin-Lewis falling out, and Jerry Lewis is quoted liberally in the book about how they just went different directions. Such is life.

[quote]I mean, have you ever seen Elvis or other musical star movies with dance routines?

I don’t even want to imagine what Elvis looked like dancing.

Though married with children, Dean had a torrid affair with June Allyson, of all people, when he first went to Hollywood in the 1950s to make movies with Jerry Lewis.

Hedda Hopper threatened to expose the affair in her column. Dean went back to his wife and kids.

A different era back when stumbling around drunk was thought of as cute and funny. Just listen to all the drunk driving jokes from those times. It's hard to believe now that something causing death on the highways got crowds laughing hours on end. Sinatra was the mean one out of that Rat Pack bunch. What's hard to watch are old clips of Dean & the others of that group making jokes about Sammy Davis being black. In the era of Jim Crow I guess it fit right in but must have been hard for Davis to take from so-called friends. When Sammy was in that accident which cost him his eye he was turned away from a hospital because he was black.

Dean was a tragic case in the end as after his son died he just faded away. I read somewhere a long time ago someone summing up his life by saying "Dean found the void and lived in it." I actually like his voice on some songs where he isn't singing in such a drunken sounding state. Out of those times I'll take Bobby Darin any day. In my view he had Sinatra beat hands down.

[quote] What's hard to watch are old clips of Dean & the others of that group making jokes about Sammy Davis being black. In the era of Jim Crow I guess it fit right in but must have been hard for Davis to take from so-called friends.

That was comedy then. You can’t look at it with today’s eyes.

Also, they WERE his friends. They refused to play any club or stay at any hotel where Sammy had to walk through a door other than the rest of them walking through. Or couldn’t stay on the same floor as them or what have you. And they’d make a big deal of it, too.

Sammy, right up until his death, never had an unkind word to say about any of them. That says something.

[quote] What's hard to watch are old clips of Dean & the others of that group making jokes about Sammy Davis being black. In the era of Jim Crow I guess it fit right in but must have been hard for Davis to take from so-called friends.

I see it completely different, by making jokes about his blackness, it showed that he fit in and was one of the group. They joked about Sinatra and Deano being Italian and Peter Lawford being English. While not being really member of the Rat Pack, everyone joked about Danny Thomas being Lebanese. And, that's the way things were, if your friend was Jewish, you made jokes about him being Jewish, if he was Irish you joked about him being Irish, Polish, etc. There is a major difference between hurtful ethnic jokes and friendly ribbing. Such as Dean or Frank could crack such jokes, but I'm sure they wouldn't have tolerated someone outside the group doing it, in their presence.

It was all an act supposedly. He was in reality a very shy quiet man. In that movie they made with Don Cheadle and others about the Rat Pack, Martin is shown to always be alone in his hotel room watching tv in bed while the others were out cavorting and drinking etc.

He's really good in Airport. The part where he tries to talk the terrorist out of blowing up the plane is so tense. A great scene.

(and profound too the way it says the terrorist will just bring shame to his family)

He was in a film with Sharon Tate I saw recently - he was wearing tight-ish late 60s pants and had such a great ass, color me surprised.

R26 "That was comedy then. You can’t look at it with today’s eyes."

People say the same thing about the homophobia in comedy that was endemic during my adolescence.

Here's the problem with that excuse though. My eyes looked at that comedy *at that time* and saw it for what it was--repugnant.

Something being popularly acceptable doesn't excuse it. There have always been people pointing out bigotry in popular culture and those people have always been actively ignored and criticized.

Writer Mark Evanier has written several blogs on how Dean's shows were taped.

[quote]I have never seen him in anything (before my time) but he looks like he stinks of cigarettes and old whisky.

Everybody smelled like that back then.

As a Gen Xer, I know him only from The Cannonball Run. He never bothered me.

He was also good- very good in fact - in Howard Hawks' Rio Bravo.

You're crazy OP, Dean Martin is the best! And a great voice.

(Although R24's revelation does chip him down just a bit. Not that he had a torrid affair, but that he picked old-lady face June Allyson?!)

Dino was the epitome of Cool... Baby .... Cool . And don't forget it .

R32, that was an interesting read. There was another thread on here that pointed out the crafty editing on 'The Dean Martin Roast' specials, and once I knew what to look for, you can tell there's no way 23 people were on the dais in Vegas at once! My favourite at the roasts was Georgia Engel, who would blatantly read off the cue cards and then immediately apologize to whomever was being roasted, repeatedly saying, "I don't know why they make me say these terrible things about you! I'm so sorry."

R31, so would it have been better for Sammy to have not been on the stage at all? No black representation in the Rat Pack, no fighting for his integrating Las Vegas hotels, lest it lead to unseemly bigotry that your modern eyes can't stomach?

You're problematic.

Dean Martin did tell the Mafia he wanted nothing to do with them. He knew they might kill him. But he risked it. Sinatra didn't.

Wasn't Sammy also Jewish or something?

Yes. He converted as an adult.

or something? such as? Turkish? A transexual? Something....

I always remember hearing about the black Jews of Harlem back in the 60s.

Connie Francis did the same, R40. And they whacked her brother.

[quote]or something? such as? Turkish? A transexual? Something....

It's colloquialism you idiot.

In your trailer park? Dontcha have business down at the OTB or something?

[quote]In your trailer park? Dontcha have business down at the OTB or something?

I don't even know what you're talking about and I don't care.

Lainie had quite the fall from 1960s to 1970s.

Before Dean became known Allyson was a big star. America's sweetheart. Both men and women loved her. So that when he became famous himself and was bedding her he probably couldn't believe it.

R39

You missed the point of my reply in R31.

The point was that there were people at the time who saw bigoted comedy for what it was and spoke against it. So, the argument that 'you can't judge art by modern eyes' as an excuse for that sort of thing is bogus. There were critics of racist comedy AT. THAT. TIME. They were ridiculed and/or ignored regularly.

The fact that you twisted my statement into suggesting that I think black performers shouldn't have been represented at all is... ridiculous and out-of-nowhere. And the fact that you used the prepackaged conservative mockery of liberal critique with "You're problematic" suggests to me that you're a conservative and aren't interested in a good-faith conversation about this. So, I'm finished with you.

Shelley also known as Shirley, June (?), Dean, Jerry, Unidentified twink (Farley Granger?), Elizabeth.

[quote]So that when he became famous himself and was bedding her he probably couldn't believe it.

"bedding her" horrid expression

Better than "skeeting in her."

R31- Like that RACIST OLD CUNT

Prince Philip

R53, That's Lupita Nyong'o's brother, a chronic photo bomber.

Lainie Kazan was pretty funny in an interview I saw recently - she played Divine's sister in a film - she said she was cast because "I look like a drag queen".

R59, Does she still shoplift?

Wasn't it Frank Sinatra's idea to reunite Dean and Jerry on the MDA telethon?

R60- When he was younger didn't Rex Reed remind you of a character in Boys In The Band.

[quote]I'm so glad I wasn't around when he was big

That is a completely stupid statement. A different time, and different attitude. Dino was the epitome of cool.

Elvis didn't dance, r23...

[quote]"bedding her" horrid expression

"Cumming all over her tits"

[quote] Dean had a torrid affair with June Allyson,

I wonder if it was Dean's violent love making that gave her that bladder control problem.

R62, Connie Casserole? Denise Deluge?

[quote] Wasn't Sammy also Jewish or something?

Sammy was black, Jewish, and disabled. He was intersectional before being intersectional was cool.

Scorcese bought the rights to the Tosches book. Just as well the film was never made, which saved the world by not having to see Leo as Dino.

R68, Sammy asked Linda Lovelace to teach him how to deep throat a cock.

When questioned by Larry King to confirm his friendship with Lovelace, Sammy did so, but did not go into detail.

R66 . . .

Upon her death, Kimberly-Clark Corporation contributed $25,000 to the June Allyson Foundation to support research advances in the care and treatment of women with urinary incontinence.

[quote]I wonder if it was Dean's violent love making that gave her that bladder control problem.

That huge guinea cock tore up June's guts. She had no sphincter control either and would shit herself.

Sammy Davis seemed like he might have been a CONNOISSEUR of COCK.

Sammy Davis fucking Kim Novak must have looked like a chihuahua mounting a golden retriever.

I love Dean Martin’s singing voice, so smooth.

Lainie Kazan? I don't know her.

I remember reading an interview with his ex wife when Dinarino died. She said the whole thing was indeed a shtick. She said me was a good husband and family man who never missed dinner with his fsmily and his ever-present drink glass may have looked like bourbon, but it was really just ice tea.

Dean Martin was apparently the model for Sharon Tate's husband ("Tony! Tony" Polar) in Valley of the Dolls.

Im ashamed to admit Im old enough to remember the "Rat Pack" on tv. My mother loved Dean Martin and played his records all the time. Yes,I said records .

Porn star Jennifer Welles said on the Midnight Blue show back in the 70s that she fucked Dean back when she was a Las Vegas dancer. Al Goldstein prodded for more details like if he was hung, she modestly indicated he was and noted he "had a beautiful body." Al asked if he skipped on pleasing her orally (which was not uncommon for old-school italians) and she said that he indeed didn't do that for her.

If you weren’t around in the ‘60s, you probably can’t even imagine what a big star he once was.

Dean Martin was one of those stars who was huge in his day, but faded from the public consciousness because he didn't translate to later generations. Bing Crosby and Bob Hope are a couple of others.

The Rat Pack helped get JFK elected, but when president-elect ordered Sammy Davis, Jr. to be "uninvited" to the 1961 Inaugural Ball - due to Davis' interracial marriage - Dean Martin was so incensed over it, that to show solidarity to his pal, he cancelled his own appearance there.

That's Amore.

Interesting body language compared between Frank Sinatra and Frank Jr vs. Dean Martin and Dean Paul

I always thought Dean Martin was an asshole, from the time I discovered him in the early 1970s when his ridiculous program was on its last legs, and he wore a bleached wig. Btw, he may have mourned his son after death, but he never paid an instant of attention to the kid when he was ALIVE.

"Is it me or is Lainie imitating Streisand's speaking voice here? "

Lainie copied mightily from Lena Horne and admits it. Unlike Miss Streisand who did the same but insists she was a total original. Barf.

Is 'laying her' more refined?

SHIT, R80. That's why these old guys always ended up on the Worst in Bed list.

'How I love the kisses of Dolores

Since she used Lavoris.'

That still cracks me up.

DL fave Marian Mercer was a regular on his variety TV show.

Worked on The Dean Martin Show a thousand years ago. He was a great boss. Now, if you want slime, his summer replacement was Bobby Darin who was an unprofessional nightmare.

I always wanted to write a book about NBC in the 70’s. Some crazy, crazy people.

My favorite Dean Martin story was told by one of his kids. He would have a party at his house and later go to the pool house and call the police with a noise complaint pretending to be a neighbor. The cops would show up and then Dean would say sorry folks we have to break up this party, the neighbors need their sleep.

Not a great fan, here, but I've always really liked his rendition of "Silver Bells."

Very cool, R90! Tell us some back stage stories of his guest stars.

[quote]If you weren’t around in the ‘60s, you probably can’t even imagine what a big star he once was.

I most certainly can!

[quote]My favorite Dean Martin story was told by one of his kids. He would have a party at his house and later go to the pool house and call the police with a noise complaint pretending to be a neighbor. The cops would show up and then Dean would say sorry folks we have to break up this party, the neighbors need their sleep.

that wouldn't have worked they would have checked with the neighbors first.

LAME fake story alert.

[Quote] I always wanted to write a book about NBC in the 70’s. Some crazy, crazy people.

Write it! It will give your immortality!

"Worked on The Dean Martin Show a thousand years ago. He was a great boss."

Yeah, that's because he only showed up on tape day. If you worked on the show, R90, your "boss" would be the producer, not the star.

[quote]Sammy, right up until his death, never had an unkind word to say about any of them.

Sammy Davis, Jr. did say later in life that all the racial "jokes" made him very uncomfortable.

That kind of thing -- and Dean Martin's lecherous drunk schtick haven't aged well at all. I find it creepy to watch.

It is creepy to watch, very much of its time. There's a reason why Dean Martin isn't really known today.

WTF, R101? Other than Sinatra, Dean Martin is the most well known rat packer. He's considered the "King of Cool." I find Martin to have been a good host, a mediocre singer and an okay movie actor, certainly nothing remotely cool. But other disagree.

[Quote] He's considered the "King of Cool."

No he's not.

Dean's former home is now empty and abandoned.

Dean Martin is about as much a part of current public consciousness as Bob Hope.

Nich Tosches makes a pretty good case in his book on Dean Martin that Martin simply did not give a shit about much of anything. The act where he would get (or pretend to get drunk) and then later on in the spy spoof movies where he just looked exhausted and irritated was apparently not much of an act.

The problem was that by the time he was playing Matt Helm, he was too old to really come across as too-cool-to-care, at least to our modern eyes. These days we expect cool older people to have their own thing, not merely mimic what younger people were doing. I think that's partly why he comes across as sleazy.

He also very obviously didn't care if he hurt a lot of the people around him, and sometimes hurt people on purpose, so that's likely another factor.

[quote]The fact that you twisted my statement into suggesting that I think black performers shouldn't have been represented at all is... ridiculous and out-of-nowhere.

There's been discussion for decades on whether it's better for various minorities to be represented as stereotype or unflatteringly, or not represented at all. It's a legit discussion.

Unfortunately, the guy you were talking to is trying to push the fallacy that it's either-or, that in the old days you either had only racist depictions of blacks or else no blacks at all. People do that a lot, but as you noted, it's not the truth.

I'm thinking of the old Bette Davis movie "In This Our Life" which had a really modern, non-racist portrayal of a falsely-accused black man. It could be done, and sometimes was.

[Quote)Lainie copied mightily from Lena Horne and admits it.

Since the great Lena Horne was mentioned, I'll post one of her duets with Dean just for enjoyment and reminiscing. He apparently liked her; she was on his show several times.

Dean's final days were not pretty.

Kate Smith could shoot ping pong balls out of her pussy.

Kate Smith looks like she’s sucking up the oxygen onstage next to Dean. Compare her and Lena.

[quote] Dean Martin's lecherous drunk schtick haven't aged well at all. I find it creepy to watch.

It was all in good fun at the time, and people understood it as such.

That is one of the strange things about the current generation. They seem to spend so much of their lives judging and disapproving of other people that they come across as essentially joyless.

Even back in the day, lots of people thought Martin's schtick was vulgar and stupid.

It is true that Jacqueline Susann based the character of Tony Polar in Valley Of the Dolls on Dean Martin. She thought Martin was retarded.

R108, yes, Lena liked working with Dean Martin. I can't imagine why. She must have known she could depend on him even though he never rehearsed, rarely came in until taping day. Lena was a perfectionist who liked to rehearse to death and drive everyone crazy doing so. And no, there was nothing between them off TV, they hardly knew each other.

Btw, Dean Martin was a drinker just like Sinatra and most men of his age group. The "drunk Dean" may have been an act, but he had drinks before showtime, and continued with double scotches after the show was over. By today's standards, he, and all of them, were alcoholics.

[quote]Lainie had quite the fall from 1960s to 1970s.

R49 I recently saw Lainie in My Favorite Year. She was HUGE but still beautiful...

Speaking of the great June Allyson the new bluray of Good News one of the silliest but best MGM musicals is spectacular.

You'll fall in love with June all over again. And dreamy Peter will have you brushing up on your high school French!

You should brush up on your high school comma usage.

This thread brought back memories of Foster Brooks -- the guy who played the drunk at all the roasts.

Oh, yeah! He was terrific.

Comic actress Kay Medford was a regular in Dean Martin's later shows (she played the mother in Funny Girl), and was a fun addition to the program. She starts at 1:22.

I loved Dino in his prime. He was gorgeous and he was a good actor. Rio Bravo and Toys in the Attic come to mind.

He was a handsome man but I guess we all get the face we deserve in old age.

Does anyone on tv have fun like this anymore?

[quote] I recently saw Lainie in My Favorite Year. She was HUGE but still beautiful...

"Welcome to my humble chapeau."

Dean Martin was fun, silly and harmless. I miss his kind of entertainment. He had personality and talent.

I wonder if Jerry Lewis resented being set up for that telethon reunion?

R128 I doubt it. He liked anything that brought attention to the telethon and routinely brought out the clip, as one of the most memorable moments in the MDA telethon history.

R126, "Two years at the Sorbonne and she still gets it wrong."

Oh, please. Sinatra was there and dictated the whole experience.

The Rat Pack were not in style in the 1970s, no one under fifty gave a shit. That meant Sinatra had to invent things, such as the WESTCHESTER PREMIER THEATER. Someone tell the story, I'm estausted just thinking about it.

I watched the excellent Sinatra documentary "All Or Nothing At All" that was made a few years ago and they talked about the changing times of the 60s and how Sinatra and his peers had a really hard time trying to deal with it. Sinatra, Dean, etc. were the top dogs for years, the Rat Pack was the coolest thing in the early Sixties, but then the culture went through such a radical change in the mid-late 60s when a new generation took over. Sinatra and co. were getting older and were no longer at the center of things, it was all about The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and the whole youth culture took over the narrative. To say that Sinatra and his generation were pissed as hell is an understatement. They were now the "old guys" and not the movers and shakers anymore and they all had a lot of resentment towards it.

My parents called him "greasy" in the 1960s.

R110, you reap what you sow

Another factor was them getting old and sick. They had been very active golfing, traveling and boating. They all would have been members of the country clubs and socialized there and in a few famous restaurants that catered to celebrities. Their kids were giving them trouble - everyone knows about Dino, Desi and Billy and the little monsters they were.

R136, Desi, Jr. was getting laid at 13.

[quote] I'm estausted just thinking about it.

If you’re estausted you should seek medical help.

Maybe the free clinic.

R125 I peed myself! They were having so much fun!

R132 Bells Are Ringing was one of Dino's best movies. He and Judy Holliday were wonderful together. He was at his most handsome and she was adorable.

Sinatra, the Mob, and Westchester

I'm sorry Dean didn't finish making SOMETHINGS GOT TO GIVE with Marilyn.

I thought r71 was being sarcastic!

R142 Dean Marin was loyal to Marilyn Monroe. She had taped quite a bit of Something's Got to Give. She was fired when she flew back east to sing Happy Birthday to JFK. They were going to replace her - I think it was Lee Remick. Dean Martin refused. Said he'd wait for Marilyn. She was rehired but alas....

Was Lee Remick a home wrecker? She was having an affair with her second husband while still married to her first?

If Martin is remembered at all, it's as part of the Rat Pack.

They're remembered, but I don't know if they're remembered fondly. They represented the idea of "cool" that was prevalent for a few years - posh, grown-up, smug, superior, cruel, treating people outside the group like toys and reinforcing a strict heirarchy in the group with cruelty, with an undercurrent of menace - in short, massive douches. Fortunately, that idea of cool lost popularity in the mid-sixties, but it never really died. There are still people who wish they could do the same, mostly the modern white douches who wish they could get away with treating people as badly as Sinatra and his pals did.

What planet Woke do you live on, R147?

I'm just someone who's realistic about how Rat Pack types see me, R148, and it seems you aren't. Their kind of cool is smug and exclusionary, people like that treat anyone outside the group as inferior and a figure of fun if they notice them at all, and I know which side of that dividing line I'm on in real life.

People who like the Rat Pack usually think they're cool enough to be part of that In Crowd, included in making jokes about their inferiors and feeling smug, but that's bullshit. If you met them, they'd call you a "fag" and make mean jokes, and threaten to have Sinatra's "boys" break your leg if you tried to make trouble about it. Martin wasn't the worst of the Rat Pack by all accounts, but he was still part of a group of real dirtbags.

I rather like Dean Martin. He was the only member of the Rat Pack who didn’t go all gaga over the Kennedys or the Mafia. He wanted nothing to do with either.

[quote] If you met them, they'd call you a "fag" and make mean jokes, and threaten to have Sinatra's "boys" break your leg if you tried to make trouble about it.

Those are large assumptions for someone who has never met them nor know them at all.

Now it's "woke" to say that a bunch of douchebros were douchebros?

You people call anything you dislike "woke." It's lost all meaning. Ridiculous.

[quote] You people call anything you dislike "woke."

What do you mean by "you people"? I think we know who you are talking about, Governor Wallace.

[Quote] What do you mean by "you people"?

Golddiggers

Dean Martin wasn't "slimy." Humor back in his day kind of was, though. By all account, he's a likable, nice guy, unlike his comedy partner Jerry Lewis, who was truly a prick.

Dean Martin was very talented. He could do comedy, he could act in dramatic roles and he was a good singer. I liked his singing better than Sinatra's.

R90 -- Would love to hear more dish on your time working with Bobby Darin on his summer replacement series. I love Darin (I thought he was better than Sinatra) and though I've read he was a cocky SOB, I'm surprised to hear he was a nightmare. I know he was at death's door for most of 1972/73 so perhaps that factored in?

It is really unfair to call them all dirt bags. They were all different personalities. some were really nice - even kind to my partner who knew most of them well. His dad, a Jew, was friends with most them. Some of them were at my partner's house in Beverly Hills every week. His dad had a weekly poker game that they all came My partner heard stars use the n-word, f-g word, wop and kike. This kind of talk was common and was used around his dad and Sammy. they didn't think twice about it.

"I like when they talk about his “raging glory.”

Actually it's the OCEAN'S "raging glory": "Brandy used to watch his eyes when he told his sailor stories; she could feel the ocean fall and rise; she saw its raging glory."

They all dressed very well, had expensive watches and jewelry. They had big expensive cards and big boats. No one was sleezy.

Are you under the impression that when someone says that X is a sleaze, they're saying that X is poor?

Oops, wrong thread. It's supposed to be in the thread about bad songs.

I have always found Dean Martin physically repulsive. Nothing I can do about it.

R146, Lee Remick was also one of JFK's conquests.

I think most DLers are too young to know how HUGELY popular Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin were as a team in the early and mid-50s. They were like mega-rock stars, with screaming fans, both women and men. The films they made together, all raucous comedies (with occasional musical numbers), like That's My Boy, Sailor Beware, Living It Up, You're Never Too Young, Hollywood or Bust and Artists and Models are mostly forgotten now but were enormous hits. And their TV appearances on variety hours were national events, the must-see TV of its time.

When they broke up, it was comparable to the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn for LA. Much grieving and wailing and incomprehension, an American tragedy! Everyone assumed that Dean would be lost without Jerry but, though it took Dean a few years, he became a surprisingly well-respected dramatic actor with The Young Lions and Some Came Running, while Jerry just continued to make....formulaic Jerry Lewis comedies.

It wasn't really until the later 1960s, when Dean mainly focused on silly lazy sex comedies that his reputation as an actor dipped, though he remained popular with general audiences well into the 70s through his TV show and those stupid roasts.

Dean Martin, though he played a stumbling lush thru most of the 60s and 70s, was arguably the least sleazy member of the Rat Pack. While he admittedly bedded many women in his time, he was a low key family man. More at peace watching Westerns at home or out golfing most of the day. Peter Lawford however? Total sleazeball. Sinatra couldn't stand him. An opportunist in the truest sense.

Dean was the King of Cool -- and had a charm and ease on stage and in front of the camera that Sinatra couldn't approach (try as he might). Sinatra might have been the better singer, but Dean had WAY more fun doing it. I think that's why I always preferred Dean Martin, Bobby Darin and Sammy Davis to balladeers like Sinatra and Tony Bennett. Darin and Davis in particular were widely versatile...great actors, impressionists, dancers and singers who could handle a lot of different genres well.

For those who have a hard time understanding Martin's appeal today, take a peek at this clip of him and the great Phil Harris. Do you think a Buble or Harry Connick could pull that off today?

The Dean Martin sex comedies of the 1960s were awful, and the "Matt Helm" spy spoofs are some of the worst movies ever made.

He was a has-been by 1970 for excellent reasons.

Dean Martin's whole schtick just doesn't translate to modern times. So dated and of his era.

"Dean Martin's whole schtick just doesn't translate to modern times. So dated and of his era."

The whole Rat Pack was like that. Still, I liked Dean Martin. By all accounts he was a nice guy whereas people like Frank Sinatra and Jerry Lewis definitely weren't.

"Was Lee Remick a home wrecker?"

I dunno, grandpa.

"Peter Lawford however? Total sleazeball. Sinatra couldn't stand him. An opportunist in the truest sense."

Sinatra kissed Lawford's ass to get close to the Kennedys. He loved Lawford until the Bobby Kennedy- Bing Crosby incident. I hope I don't have to describe that to you, you seem young and ignorant, R166. Sinatra was as sleazy as anyone. .

R168 nailed it. Dean Martin had a resurgence after his death, but it was short lived.

R170, Sinatra would have nothing to do with Lawford once JFK refused to visit Sinatra as planned and after Sinatra made renovations to his house to welcome him. He blamed it all on Lawford.

Close, R171. Robert Kennedy had JFK stay at Republican Bing Crosby's house instead of Sinatra's. The reason - Sinatra's alleged mob connections. Sinatra blamed BOBBY and Lawford. In the late 1960s, Sinatra even made comments to the press on camera how the younger Kennedy was not qualified for president. All over the above referred incident.

Gotcha, r172.

I remember reading about the reason being the mafia situation, but not remembering where or when I read that, I figured I’d leave it out, just in case.

And I had forgotten he stayed at Crosby’s house. I just remembered he didn’t stay at Sinatra’s.

R170 -- haha, not young or ignorant. I've read nearly every book on the subject. I didn't say Sinatra wasn't sleazy, only that it wasn't a fair moniker for Martin. And yes, Sinatra used Lawford to get closer to the Kennedys but privately, Frank couldn't stand the guy, even before the fallout. This is well documented. Considering Frank and Giancana (and the entire Chicago outfit) basically swung the vote for Kennedy, it's understandable how pissed off he was when the Kennedys rebuffed the invitation (not to mention RFK making it his crusade to go after the very people who got them elected)

"Close, [R171]. Robert Kennedy had JFK stay at Republican Bing Crosby's house instead of Sinatra's. The reason - Sinatra's alleged mob connections. Sinatra blamed BOBBY and Lawford."

Sinatra probably went to his grave without ever realizing that RFK had been absolutely right to hold him at arm's length, because he really WAS mobbed up and a loose cannon! Someone else was always to blame, in Sinatra world.

R170 truly believes in the DL tag line “pointless bitchery”, doesn’t he?

I love seeing Peter Lawford in his late 1940s MGM musicals like Easter Parade, Good News and Royal Marriage. He was so incredibly handsome and charming.

But can anyone explain why MGM never seemed to consider dubbing him in all the singing he did in those films? Was his voice so distinctive that it couldn't be convincingly duplicated? I'm surprised his name never comes up in discussions of film dubbing (which I happen to be reading about a lot lately online).

Peter Lawford was a hot MESS.

If you've never seen "Dead Ringer" you should check it out. Peter Lawford co-stars with Bette Davis, who played twins in the movie (one good and one bad, of course) with one of the worst wigs that has ever been seen on film.

I think Lawford had really lost his sex appeal by the time of DEAD RINGER. Clearly, too much boozing and smoking and god knows what. I first fell in love with him on the brief late 1950s TV series of THE THIN MAN, which I enjoyed as a kid but that might have been the last time he looked good.

R180, Peter absolutely loathed his "The Thin Man" co-star, Phyllis Kirk.

I always disliked Peter Lawford. As an actor he was smarminess personified. As a human being he was total trash. Nobody remembers him for his acting; if he's remembered at all it's for supposedly being the last person Marilyn Monroe spoke to on the phone before she died. She supposedly said to him "Say goodbye to Pat (his wife), say goodbye to the President, and say goodbye to yourself, because you're a nice guy." I myself believe she said no such thing. Anyway, Lawford was a repulsive creep. Maybe he became a sleazebag because he was molested as a child. I heard he was a child when he was deflowered by an adult woman, a maid or somebody like that. That might have fucked him up really bad.

[quote] It's hard to believe now that something causing death on the highways got crowds laughing hours on end

Are you mad? You’re apparently forgetting you’re on DL...that sort of thing has this place in stitches for days.

"I love seeing Peter Lawford in his late 1940s MGM musicals like Easter Parade..."

I'm old enough to have been first exposed to the fat, silver sideburned asshole Peter Lawford. I could understand why this schlub was famous. R182 has it right.

Peter dated Dorothy Dandridge but had to keep it under wraps because of people's views on mixed marriages. Understandable. I read that he was heartbroken when she died. He was one of her pallbearers.

I don't know why he went off the rails like he did. He really turned into a dirtball in his later years; his toupee in the 70s was so awful, looking like a mogwai on his head.

Peter's son Christopher Lawford, that was on AMC, looked so much like him.

"don't know why he went off the rails like he did"

WHY? Booze, coke, prostitutes....

Peter Lawford would watch his own son fuck prostitutes. Yes. He actually did that.

He was worried his son was gay?

Maybe Lawford was just the kind of straight sleazeball who thought that his parents should have been buying him prostitutes when he was still a kid.

As for jokes about drunk driving getting laughs, in the sixties and seventies, any show of concern for consequences marked you as a total square and a buzzkill and probably a Nixon supporter. This lasted until the 1980s, when the MADD people started campaigning for the legal system to take drunk driving seriously, and AIDS started killing people. And even then, any attempt to save lives through prevention would get you called a sex-negative right-wing prude.

R6, R9 I chatted with a guy recently - now in his 80s - who claimed to be a bodyguard back in the day. Said the same thing. Dean Martin was an act. Sinatra was a dick. He told me a bunch more stories but I can’t remember them now.

I understand his license plate read "DRUNKY".

After Christopher was born, Peter complained to his wife Pat that the baby cried too much, slept irregularly and made the house and his clothes smell like shit.

He convinced Pat to have their first born child live with a nanny in an apartment down the street.

BTW, Christopher was born on the same day as Joey Luft and in the same hospital.

^ Christopher Lawford, former alcoholic drug addict, died in 2018 age 63.

^What a sad life.

I think we need a new thread on Peter Lawford. He's definitely hijacked this Dino thread!

R194 . . .

On September 4, 2018, Christopher Lawford died of a heart attack in Vancouver, British Columbia, where he was living with his girlfriend and working to open a recovery center. He had a medical emergency at a yoga studio and later died. Patrick Kennedy told the Associated Press that Lawford had been doing "hot yoga, which he did often, but the strain of it 'must have been too much for him at that point'".

R196 Ugh. The Lawford / Kennedy link continued to their children. Both families treated Marilyn like a whore. Fuck 'em.

Peter’s parents porked profusely peddling perdition.

They were married to other people when mom got preggers.

And she made him wear girl clothing for a while too. And she was hypercritical of Peter.

And OP thinks Dino was slimy? OMG - Lawford was the worst.

[quote]Peter Lawford would watch his own son fuck prostitutes. Yes. He actually did that.

And???

R198, His mother, Lady Lawford, went to Louis B. Mayer and told him she believed Peter was homosexual.

I found Lawford to be very sad. His cunt of a mother should have been charged with child abuse. She psychologically tormented him. He hero worshiped JFK, but the Kennedys treated him like a joke, and JFK just used him as pimp to provide women for him to fuck. When JFK was killed,Lawford collapsed on the floor, vomiting and sobbing. A very tragic, sad man. His death was horrifying. It is reported that he sat up in bed, suddenly bleeding from every pore of his body. When that pos Sinatra's son was kidnapped, FS had the fucking gall to call Lawford, asking for help from the Kennedys. In spite of being treated with cruelty by FS and blacklisted from working in Hollywood, PL helped him by asking Kennedy to intervene. FS never thanked him or spoke to him again. I despise Frank Sinatra. I loved Dean Martin and still do. Dean was everything FS WISHED he could be . Suave, charming , cool,calm , collected. Talented actor, better singer (imo) . But mostly Dean was self assured. He did not give a fuck about what others thought of him. That included the mafia, whose dicks FS disgustingly sucked. To feel like a big man. A bully. FS was a small man in every way. Dean was a real man. A very kind man who felt no need to step on others to make himself feel big. FS was an ugly bully. I never understood what the beautiful Ava saw in him. FS was cruel to people who helped him and befriended him. Lawford, Montgomery Cliff, for years that included Sammy Davis. Sorry, but I loathe him for his cruelty to others, especially Lawford.

[quote]FS was a small man in every way.

Not *every* way, dear.

Also, unlike Frank, Dean had a full head of thick dark wavy Italian hair.

Wasn't there some story of Peter Lawford's mother visiting LB Mayer's office when Peter was a teenager and warning LB that Peter might have homosexual tendencies? Rumors of Peter's bisexuality continued all his life. It was said he and Dominick Dunne were part of a gay surfers' cabal in Malibu in the 1950s.

[quote] Ugh. The Lawford / Kennedy link continued to their children.

It continued because Christopher's mother was Patricia Kennedy, JFK's sister. Therefore, Christopher Lawford and Patrick Kennedy were cousins.

Why would his mother warn Mayer? To get her son fired?

R206 My question, too. Why would his mother make that claim to Mayer?

Also, R202, you obviously were in love with the guy.

I thought Mayer, without prompting, told Lawford that "we have several actors like you..." Meaning homosexual.

I don't know the details but there is a notorious story about Lawford's horrid mother meeting with Mayer to warn him about something concerning her son. Perhaps someone here will know what I'm talking about.

Young Lawford had a reputation as quite the ladies man at post-WWII MGM, dating starlets Lana, Ava, Judy and Liz but perhaps he was overcompensating.

In the 40's Peter's beauty was peerless...

Adorable...but he definitely had a dark side. Thanks Mom Lawford.

I would have died to have seen Peter Lawford and Montgomery Clift in their prime going at it like rabbits.

Dean had a great body and a big thick pinga.

I find that kind of slimy very sexy.

[quote]Dean had a great body and a big thick pinga.—Lainie

I didn't think Lainie had much interest in pingas, if you know what I mean.

[quote]She had taped quite a bit of Something's Got to Give.

Filmed. And not that much.

"Why would his mother warn Mayer? To get her son fired?"

Because in those days people believed that sending their fey boy to a psychiatrist would turn him into the rough, butch, manly, straight, but well-behaved young he-man she and Mayer wanted. The first half of the 20th century was the heyday of psychoanalysis, when people believed that talking to a shrink could cure everything from schizophrenia to scrofula, and that they could most definitely turn gay children straight.

Hell, half a century of debunking and admissions of error still haven't convinced everyone, people still want to believed that "conversion therapy" works.

"My mother drew up the contract / So I'm here."

Again, why would the mother give Mayer something the could be used against her son? She could have sent him to a psychiatrist herself.

I could go either way with Dino but he was part of a very ugly incident in an Atlantic City casino where he and Sinatra were appearing in I believe the late 70s. They went to a black jack table where the dealer was an Asian woman. Sinatra wanted to do something that was against house rules. The dealer wouldn't allow him. He insisted. Things got ugly real fast. Does anyone remember the specifics of this?

Gavone!

What my Italian Hoboken born and bred mother called Sinatra. Dialect for cafone- a low class jerk. She was younger than him by a number of year but her parents knew Dolly his mother who knew all the Italian immigrants there and was known as to be what can be called politely a 'fixer.' She was never charmed by his singing. Just another young italian male asshole full of himself.

Her older sister was crazy about him. Tried to see him at the Paramount in Times Square. One of the thousands of screaming bobby soxxers outside who couldn't get in. She turned on him when Hoboken gave Sinatra a welcome home parade and thousands of people lined the streets and there were bands and the mood was at fever pitch. Sinatra didn't show and after that she had no use for him.

R207- No, not at all. I was too young and never found him to be desirable in any way. I have read many books on the Kennedys, Sinatra, ect. I do remember being very young and watching Dean's show and the DM roasts. Peter Lawford's fetish was S&M according to his last live in girlfriend. She said he had to be whipped and humiliated. His mother seemed to take sadist delight in humiliating him and I never read why she did that. He had no self esteem because of her. I think the bitch was demonic. PL had nothing to do with the kennedys decision. Nothing. FS blacklisted him in Hollywood and PL never really got any real work after FS did that to him . FS also was fucking Lauren Bacall In Humphrey Bogarts house as he lay dying upstairs. I never could stand either of them after that .

The Paramount building is still in Times Square and I think there's a mock up of the original marquee outside where it would have been when it was a theater with offices where the theater itself was. Sinatra on Larry King said when he was in town he would still drive by it for memory's sake.

Lawford has nothing much to do in either Easter Parade or Royal Wedding but in Good News his handsomeness and charm are on full display.

Peter Lawford was a good game player.

On the original B&W "Password" series in the 1960s, he held the record for the lightening round, five words in 12 seconds.

No other celebrity player ever came even close to breaking it.

Peter Lawford was destitute in his final days.

With the secrets he knew, i. e. Marilyn, the Kennedys, etc. a publisher would have paid him plenty to write a book.

It's to his credit that he took what he knew to his urn.

He lived in a trailer park?

"Again, why would the mother give Mayer something the could be used against her son? She could have sent him to a psychiatrist herself.:"

Because if she sent him herself, she'd have to pay for the treatment out of her own pocket! Telling Mayer presumably meant the studio would pay.

As for telling Mayer, well, if I'm right about her expecting Mayer to send him to a de-gaying psychiatrist, then she didn't expect his behavior to ever develop into a real problem. He was a kid at the time, presumably not doing anything blackmailable, and if she believed that a shrink could turn him straight, then there never would be. All speculation on my part, of course.

It is alleged that Tom Drake drank himself to death over the unrequited love of Lawford.

[quote]What do you mean by "you people"?

Rightwing fucksticks like you.

Shouldn't you be defending the pejorative use of the word "fags" some more, like you did earlier in the thread?

[quote] I didn't think Lainie had much interest in pingas, if you know what I mean.

No. What do you mean?

[quote] Again, why would the mother give Mayer something the could be used against her son?

Maybe she didn’t want to see his career blow up if it came out and wanted Mayer to do what studios did back then, which is set him up with what we nowadays call a beard.

True, R225, but I wouldn't trust his permanently drug altered memory. I don't think Lawford "not talking" had anything to do with nobility or tastefulness. I also don't buy this blame the mother shit. Your parents are not responsible for what you do as an adult. Then when you're 40, you own your life completely and cannot blame anyone for where you are at that point.

My main memories of Peter Lawford are of the bloated, pretentious asshole who did game shows and played TV host or the husband/boyfriend of the lead. His acting/hosting was nothing more than perfunctory. Other than the Kennedy association, I saw nothing remotely special or interesting about Lawford.

“I also don't buy this blame the mother shit. Your parents are not responsible for what you do as an adult. Then when you're 40, you own your life completely and cannot blame anyone for where you are at that point.”

You sound clueless. I have known several people who were absolutely destroyed by their shitty parents, you can’t come back from that.

Parents do the damage, but as adults, we're left with the repair bill. It's unfair, but true.

R233, you MUST come back from that. Most everyone has parents who did endless amounts of damage, but 90% of the population does not walk around in a dysfunctional haze. You work it out, learn how to deal with it and move on. If one is 40 and over crying over what daddy did when they were 15, it's time to get therapy and move the fuck on.

[quote]Parents do the damage, but as adults, we're left with the repair bill.

R234 I never heard that before. I agree totally and will be using that going forward.

Thanks R236. My own therapist told me that. It helped me to focus on what I could do for myself rather than stay in a rut because I kept blaming my parents. True, they left my brain a toxic wasteland, but I had to find my way out of it on my own. And once I quit drinking like a fish the way that they did, I became a lot clearer to me.

Drinking only makes everything worse.

Wow. R237 that's where I am right now. Drinking and struggling with damage. R238 is correct. I hope to get out of this and your words helped a lot. Thank you.

[quote]Drinking only makes everything worse.

LIAR!

Lady Lawford wanted LB to give her a paid job as Peter's 'minder' to make sure he didn't get up to any mischief. She was a grifter and to make money alleged that Peter was of the lavender persuasion. LB sent her on her way.

Dino's daughter Deana wrote a thing/book about what a crappy Dad he was, although it was mostly due to him not being around or showing much interest in the kids from his first family. His first wife was a raging alcoholic who couldn't take them. The evil stepmother Jeanne became the reluctant guardian. According to Deana, Pops sometimes groused about people thinking he was actually a drunk when he only had 5-7 drinks a day spread out from breakfast. Deana says she responded by pointing out all the prescription meds and mood enhancers he was on. Dean argued they were harmless because they came from a doctor. The guy was drugged out of his mind.

R242: I read that book and no, she didn’t complain about what a crappy Dad he was nor did she have an evil stepmother,

Wasn't Dean Jr. Dorothy Hamill's first husband and first true love?

[quote]According to Deana, Pops sometimes groused about people thinking he was actually a drunk when he only had 5-7 drinks a day spread out from breakfast.

That's definitely an alcoholic.

[quote]Wasn't Dean Jr. Dorothy Hamill's first husband and first true love?

Dean Paul Martin and Dorothy Hamill were married from 1982 to 1984. He was previously married to Olivia Hussey.

R246, in the era that included Dean Martin, one was not an alcoholic unless they passed out after drinking all day. Thus the myth that Dean Martin was not an alcoholic or a drunk became "true."

Lawford, sexy slim and hairy

r248 that's very true. What constituted alcoholism was very different back then. An "alcoholic" was someone who got blitzed drunk and fell down and behaved like an ass. It was more the "embarrassing" part of drinking that was thought of as being alcoholism. You could put away a fifth of hard liquor a day but as long as you were able to hold your shit together you weren't thought of as a "problem drinker."

Similarly, a person who smoked a pack of cigarette a day was a "light smoker." Two packs a day was pretty much the norm.

Is it known whether he fucked Marilyn?

I also read that book and fully support what R243 posted.

R247, I remember a PEOPLE Magazine profile on Dorothy Hamill from when she was touring in an ice skating show and then boyfriend Dino Martin was traveling with her.

In the article, she teased Martin about all the "gay boys" in the show who were obviously attracted to him.

I don't know what you think you read but Deana said right in the introduction that people would ask her if Dean was a good Dad and she was "sad" because she had to say no. True, she didn't use the word crap.

Dean's second wife Jeanne refused to let Dean's son from his first family in the front door when they were having a memorial for Dean Jr. after his crash. She told him it was for "family only." Literally shut the door on him. It's in the fucking book.

[quote] It's in the fucking book.

In the what book, dear?

“Dean's second wife Jeanne refused to let Dean's son from his first family in the front door when they were having a memorial for Dean Jr. after his crash. She told him it was for "family only." Literally shut the door on him. It's in the fucking book.”

That was a strange thing to do but for YEARS she provided a stable home to Dean’s kids from his first marriage and Martin’s daughter stayed in touch even after they divorced.

Martin was in showbiz so frequently gone but was not a crap father, his daughter loved him very much and none of his kids were estranged from him.

Sounds like reading comprehension isn’t your forte.

[quote]I'm so glad I wasn't around when he was big - all the movies, TV shows and records. He must have really been in people's faces for years.

Yeah people really hated him, that's why they went to all his movies, watched his TV shows and bought his records. The guy was talented, modest, funny and likeable. You don't seem overly bright.

"Martin was in showbiz so frequently gone but was not a crap father, his daughter loved him very much and none of his kids were estranged from him."

That's because they craved the love and attention that they never got from Dean. A very typical story. My own brother idolized our father and was crushed when he died from lung cancer after smoking for 65 years. I wrote that guy off when I was 22 because he was a mostly absent egotistical drunk father who couldn't hold a job.

For those of you quoting, type the word "quote" inside square brackets, no spaces, followed by the words you wish to quote: it is clearer than using simple quotation marks.

[quote]type the word "quote" inside square brackets[/quote]

^ testing

Except, r261, you don’t “close” it.

(No /quote.)

R261 It is such a comfort to know that the noble and cogent work we do here will continue even after some of us have had to retire through great age and infirmity.

Dataloungers don't retire.

[quote] Dataloungers don't retire.

They just fade away.

Martin's drunk act was exactly that, an act.

The key to Dino was his excessive privacy. He would do a sole take and then depart for destinations unknown. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[quote]Martin's drunk act was exactly that, an act.

Yes, when he was performing, he "acted drink." In reality, the amount of alcohol in he consumes every day counted, and it made him an ALCOHOLIC, darling.

R53, Doesn't look like Farley Granger. Check out Shelley looking at and wanting attention from Dean. Mmm-hmmm.

I've read a lot of memoirs and bios on the Rat Pack, and Dean's drinking really wasn't an issue until the death of his son in the late 80s. Sure, he likely had a cocktail or two in the evening (as was the fashion of the era) but he was NOT the hard partier that Sinatra and his entourage were. And even Sammy would give Frank a run for his money in the partying dept (he was admittedly out of control in the late 60s/early 70s). Even during the height of 'the Summit' era, Dean followed a pretty low key routine. He got up early to golf, would breeze in to tape his show, then spend the early evening watching Westerns on TV, eating butter sandwiches. Yes, butter sandwiches.

Nick Tosches (terrific) book really paints Dean as a talented loner who really didn't get a shit about too much. His daughter Deana's book confirms this view through her own experience. He was a detached figure. Warm and kind enough to those around him but definitely remote. Deana only really felt a deeper connection to the man in his final years when she'd cook and bring over her grandmother Angela's Pasta Fagioli.

[quote] eating butter sandwiches. Yes, butter sandwiches.

Nothing unusual about that.

Ever had a buttered roll?

[quote] Nothing unusual about that.

You can say that again.

[quote] He was a detached figure. Warm and kind enough to those around him but definitely remote.

Not very Italian

[quote] Deana only really felt a deeper connection to the man in his final years when she'd cook and bring over her grandmother Angela's Pasta Fagioli.

Did Dean make her drain her pasta?

R165, Dino could never dance as well as Jerry!

Moreover, IMO Lewis proved himself a fine dramatic actor, which his classic "The Nutty Professor" evidenced with his alter-ego character "Buddy Love."

R272, you're dreaming. .That didn't mean he wasn't drinking alone in the hotel room.

"Dean's drinking really wasn't an issue"

Means he was still awake at 10PM.

"he was NOT the hard partier that Sinatra and his entourage were"

Sure. The trouble is with you kiddies is that you read books and books and books and BELIEVE THEM. You have no knowledge of the era except what you read in books.

FACT: Dean Martin drank enough to out you under the table.

Sorry, that's R272, and yes, R272, you're still a no-nothing jerk

R277 She's doing all the work! Jerry's just moving his feet.

Did anyone ever tell Sinatra to go fuck himself? Was everyone scared of him?

R281, Some columnists dared to roast him in print, Lee Mortimer and Dorothy Kilgallen to name two.

In retaliation, he punched out Mortimer in Ciro's nightclub and he mercilessly berated Kilgallen in his nightclub act.

[quote]Some columnists dared to roast him in print, Lee Mortimer and Dorothy Kilgallen to name two.

Did Dorothy berate Sinatra for never having starred in the legitimate theater?

[quote] you're still a no-nothing jerk

I adore irony.

R278, Whence your knowledge of "the era" and specifically Dean Martin the man?

I'm 71 and remember the heyday of the Rat Pack and the JFK Administration.

Nevertheless, I would hesitate to claim to know more about a star's drinking habits than several biographers. Unless I knew him. So if you knew Dino, tell us more!

[quote] I'm 71 and remember the heyday of the Rat Pack and the JFK Administration.

So young

After Martin and Lewis broke up it was assumed that Jerry Lewis would have a fabulous career and that Dean Martin would just fade away! How wrong they were! His career continued on very well; he was a respected actor, had hit records and a successful tv series. Supposedly Jerry Lewis tried quite a few times to have a hit tv series but all his efforts flopped and of course he never had an success as a singer. All Jerry Lewis could do was keep making dopey comedies.

Steal from another thread

I couldn't stand Jerry's solo films...why'd people find them funny?

[quote]I rather like Dean Martin. He was [bold]the only member of the Rat Pack who didn’t go all gaga over the Kennedys[/bold] or the Mafia. He wanted nothing to do with either.

[quote]Dean Martin, though he played a stumbling lush thru most of the 60s and 70s, [bold]was arguably the least sleazy member of the Rat Pack.[/bold]

What about Joey Bishop?

R289, I used to love Jerry Lewis and Martin-and-Lewis films... up to age 9 or 10.

[quote] Some columnists dared to roast him in print, Lee Mortimer and Dorothy Kilgallen to name two.

I would mention that many people think she was killed by the mob or CIA, because she was critical of the Warren Commission conclusions about the death of JFK.

What did Peter Lawford do as part of the Vegas act? Frank, Dean and Sammy could sing, Joey was allegedly a comedian. What would Lawford do onstage?

[quote]I would mention that many people think she was killed by the mob or CIA, because she was critical of the Warren Commission conclusions about the death of JFK.

I always heard that she was killed, not because she was critical of the Warren Commission conclusions, but because she had obtained inside information about the plot to kill Kennedy that she was about to reveal.

R295 That is basically, what I meant. She was critical of the Warren Commission in that she believed they came to the wrong conclusions and were a coverup.

I'm also curious about Joey Bishop. Seems like over the years I've read very conflicting stories about him being either a mensch or a bastard. In any case, he is truly forgotten now....how would anyone under 50 (60?) know his name?

R297 Very much less known than the others. The only reason I know anything about him was I found a boxed set of one of the seasons of his early 60s sitcom for $3.00 at some closeout store. It wasn't great. It was a spinoff of The Danny Thomas Show, and is little more than a pale derivative of that classic series. I wonder if his talk show was better.

I'm old enough to remember Joey as a big TV star throughout the 1960s. There was a sitcom with Abby Dalton (who I loved) as his wife and then the late night talk show with Regis Philbin as his Ed McMahon. And he appeared a lot on game shows. His comedic delivery was very dry and deadpan, doubtful it would appear funny now.

Joey was a bastard. When his co-stars on his TV show got bigger laughs than him (Joe Flynn, Guy Marks) , they were canned.

The only time I liked Joey was in a scene from the movie "A Guide For The Married Man". His wife catches him in bed with a floozy (nice bod on Joey, by the way). He denies it, even while he and the bimbo are getting dressed right in front of the wife. Hilarious scene.

Joey Bishop had one of the early late night talk shows opposite Carson, circa 1967. Side kick? REGIS FILBIN!

Here is an interesting article about them including Joey:

[quote]What about Joey Bishop?

What about him? He wasn't funny, didn't sing/dance/entertain. Bishop and Lawford were the outliers of the Ratpack. They had no value...

Maybe Bishop and Lawford were pimps?

[quote]My favorite Dean Martin story was told by one of his kids. He would have a party at his house and later go to the pool house and call the police with a noise complaint pretending to be a neighbor. The cops would show up and then Dean would say sorry folks we have to break up this party, the neighbors need their sleep.

[quote] that wouldn't have worked they would have checked with the neighbors first. LAME fake story alert.

You think it's far farfetched that the Beverly Hills Police would indulge the biggest stars in the world? Now that's LAME

[quote]how would anyone under 50 (60?) know his name?

I discovered him a few years ago when AntennaTV started showing reruns of his sitcom, the Joey Bishop Show. After that I noticed him on an episode of Murder She Wrote.

[quote] how would anyone under 50 (60?) know his name?

Movies are rerun and some young folk watch them.

[quote]Joey was a bastard. When his co-stars on his TV show got bigger laughs than him (Joe Flynn, Guy Marks) , they were canned.

When Guy Marks is getting bigger laughs than you, it's time to rethink your career in comedy.

I know I'm old, but Guy Marks?

He wasn't unique. Pretty much every star of that era would be considered slimy today. It would be easier to list the ones that weren't.

Until Joan Rivers, Joey Bishop was Johnny Carson's most frequent guest host, then ABC gave him his own late night talk show, which fizzled.

My dad despised both Bishop and Lawford. He thought that they were useless.

Of all of the Rat Pack guys my partner was closest to Joey. BIshop had a big boat and used to invite Rob on it. Rob used to attend the taping of his show. Joey sort of adopted Rob. I don't think he missed a single one his shows. That's a lot of memories for him. When Joey got old - and sick - he just disappeared. He wouldn't return Rob's calls.

Did Joey acknowledge Rob's homosexuality, r315? Was Joey aware of it?

When Rob came out to his dad his father rent his garments, and chanted the kadish. He disowned him. What a horrible thing to have happen. Joey knew about it and made a point of making sure that he knew about it and supported Rob. It seems like Joey saw himself as a substitute dad. Later his dad changed his tune and accepted him. He even let him hold gay parties in their house - that had a great pool! His family welcomed me with open arms and made me a member of the family - for good or bad. That was in 1990 when we met.

R318, sorry but you will have to read all 318 preceding posts first in order to understand. Then, if you still don't know who Rob is, ask again.

I've been keeping up with this thread but at this point I've completely forgotten there was a Rob.

Based on the rumors he had 10 inches of uncut Italian salami and he knew how to use it.

^ you obviously have not seen the pictures

I've read all the threads - and offered a few posts - but I still don't know who ROB is supposed to be.

[quote]^ you obviously have not seen the pictures

For a gay men you've got no fucking clue about the size difference between flaccid and erect.

[quote] For a gay men

Just how big is the poster you’re referring to?!

[quote] I've read all the threads - and offered a few posts - but I still don't know who ROB is supposed to be.

Then reading comprehension really isn’t your thing.

[quote]Then reading comprehension really isn’t your thing.

Then you obviously don't know the answer either but thanks for playing.

Rob is either the DL poster or his lover whose Dad was a friend of Joey Bishop and has been telling us stories of Joey's old age.

They all had personae. Frank was dangerous, Sammy was happy, Peter was suave, Dino was cool, and Joey was dour.

Sammy Davis, Jr. was the most talented of them all.

R325, Rob Petrie from New Rochelle, NY.

Davis was talented for sure, but I find him unendurable.

With the exception of Sinatra, the rest of the Rat Pack have kind of faded into history and look like relics in the 21st Century.. Sammy Davis Jr. was a huge star, for example, but he's not really in the public consciousness anymore.

I was never particularly a fan of Sammy Davis but, as a teen, saw him on Broadway in GOLDEN BOY (1965-66?), in which he was truly fantastic. The unstoppable energy and charisma were off the charts and gave him an unlikely sex appeal, the kind you never see on a Broadway stage any more. Totally believable as a bantam weight boxer, dancing a choreographed championship match.

I'll never forget that after the curtain call, he sat on stage for at least 20 minutes and sang several songs, most memorably "What Kind of Fool Am I?" to enormous cheering. The audience was in love with him.

You know nothing about Dean Martin, Op. He was a good person that was troubled in part, but who of us isn’t? He was not slimy.

He's certainly wonderful on the obc. I'm envious that you got to see him in it.

"Davis was talented for sure, but I find him unendurable.

Likewise. He was an excellent singer and dancer and undoubtedly had charisma, but he just tried so damn hard! He was PERFORMING at all times, grabbing your attention by the throat and gripping with all his strength.

He must have been fantastic as a stage performer, but very irritating in TV shows and movies.

R147 You're right in your description of the Rat Pack's antics. Anytime I watch the old clips of this click it makes me cringe. Sinatra was over rated as a singer. Bobby Darin had him beat by a mile. They treated Sammy Davis Jr with public ridicule using the old watermelon jokes and usual trash that people actually thought was acceptable in those times. I hate seeing how the public laughed and laughed at the foolish drivel during some of these Vegas shows. Remember this was back when being or acting drunk was considered funny and cool. They were all pretty much a bunch of jerks in their private lives. Sinatra was the worst.

Dino is finally getting his own documentary treatment, courtesy of TCM this month:

I agree with the above posters that Bobby Darin (and Sammy) had Sinatra and Co beat by a mile. A shame Darin didn't live longer...I can't help but feel he'd be as hip (or hipper) than Tony Bennett and his latter day renaissance.

Love Dean and no, he doesn’t come across as slimy at all. I always thought Sinatra was though.

Just saw the documentary King of Cool on TCM. Dino was not slimy, not ever. He was gorgeous and smooth. Jerry Lewis was obviously in love with him.

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