The Story Behind the Demise of Michfest

Interesting bit of history and bullying, culminating in murder!

For anyone new to the transgender war against the lesbian community, Dana Rivers aka David Chester Warfield was a California teacher who “transitioned” on the job and was let go due to allegations of locking his students into a classroom and forcing them to listen to him explain his personal life. He received national news coverage after challenging his employer for discrimination. The case was settled. Rivers was quite taken with the idea of fame and had many highfalutin plans to parlay himself into a media career, none of which came to fruition.

Rivers was an organizer and participant in “Camp Trans”, the largest organized protest in transgender history. Camp trans was a campaign against the rights of lesbians to hold an annual women-only music festival called “Michfest” on private land. Dana Rivers and other Camp Trans protesters occupied the space outside the rural lesbian-owned property and traveled cross-country to harass lesbians whom, they believed, discriminated against men by excluding males from a private lesbian event on private land. Dana Rivers and fellow members of the Camp Trans encampment dedicated themselves to preventing lesbians from holding private women-only events on private property.

Major activist organizations HRC (Human Rights Campaign), NCLR (National Center for Lesbian Rights) and the National LGBTQ Task Force, among others, supported the campaign against private lesbian music festivals, declaring them offensive to men, who were excluded. In 2016 these organizations all supported a total boycott, sponsored by Equality Michigan, against any female artist that had ever, or may in future, perform at any woman-only or lesbian event. In a shocking twist, the Indigo Girls, who had headlined the event several times turned on their fan base and supported the blacklist against lesbian performers. This resulted in the end of their own careers.

After 40 years Michfest buckled under the pressure of the boycott and ceased to exist in 2016.

A few months later, in November 2016, David Warfield/Dana Rivers went on to brutally batter, then stab, shoot, and burn two women who were long time Michfest attendees and their adopted son. David/Dana was charged with stabbing, shooting, and beating Patricia Wright and Charlotte Reed and their son Benny, and then burning them. He has been housed in the Santa Rita Jail- allegedly in the women’s sector- ever since.

I'm reading this NOW so that I don't have to read it THEN.

Dan White had the Twinkie Defense.

This one will raise the Cilantro Defense.

What a sick fucker! Die in prison

I always thought Michfest was a DL-created lez joke/meme/thing. Now I know it existed for 40 years?!!! W...T...F!!!

David/Dana brutally murders a lesbian couple and their child and receives 0 coverage from major "LGBTQIA2SETC" publications, but a single children's book author writes a couple tweets defending the existence of homosexuality and recognizing the importance of sex segregation and people lose their motherfucking minds KILL ALL TRANSPHOBES AAAAAAA. What a goddamn joke.

Anyone who still doesn't understand that this silly alphabet community has been taken over by figures like James/Jennifer Boylan (autogynephilic man with a wife and children who is head of GLAAD) is being deliberately obtuse.

MAN ON THE LAND!!! MAN ON THE LAND!!!!!

Can someone summarize the relationship between the murderer and the victims? Did they become acquainted because of Michfest?

Is the linked the creator of the sitcom "Father Ted"?

It was really sad when this group of hostile, angry men descended on Michfest, intending to make it about them.

It seemed like a wonderful and safe place for a lot of women who had been victims of trauma to find healing and community.

I was just thinking the other day that MichFest deserves to have its own movie one day, and here's their in!

I miss the annual Michfest threads. Those were classic DL.

Fuck the Trannies for ending Mitchfest with their misogyny and homophobia.

Jesus, I never knew the story of its demise. How tragic.

Is he on garbage detail in prison?

Me too r14. Even though there were many DL gays who poked fun at Michfest there were plenty of us who enjoyed hearing about it during and after the event.

I remember the discussions here when it was cancelled once and for all. Very sad.

[quote]was once an “honorary marshal” for San Francisco’s annual homosexual “pride” parade

So David used to identify as gay?

Or the pride parade allowed a him to do it as trans?

We have to get our own community back. Gays and women should not be forced to make room for others who are hostile to us.

We told you this THEN, so we wouldn't have to tell you this NOW.

Huh. I always just assumed a stolen nutloaf recipe was involved.

Nice of Graham to rehash some reporting from several years ago. This can't possible be new to anyone on DL.

I really am sad about the demise of Michfest. The attendees were people who are very much looked down on by mainstream society, the fat vegan eccentric lesbians who don't conform to mainstream behavior or ideals, and they'd managed to find a place where they could have a private party just for them and be totally happy for part of the year.

And it was ruined by a bunch of rageaholic man-babies and the clueless nitwits they enlisted, because they were FURIOUS that these women weren't agreeing to redefine the word "lesbian" and making their dicks the center of attention at a party, and they were confident they'd get support because nobody would stand up for the fat old lesbians in vagina capes.

I swear, these trans-lesbians all seem to have massive rage issues with women, and for them, the whole transitioning process is a way to fuel that rage. They demand to be lesbians, and by definition the lesbians don't want to be their girlfriends, and the transition to "lesbian" makes their rage against women increase a hundredfold.

This is just the new way to attack women.

Reading this story again still makes me shudder. Those poor women and their son.

Fuck this POS and I hope he meets the end of a shank soon.

Three years and Dana Rivers has still not had his day in court. Does it usually take three fucking years for a triple murderer to face their crimes.

How many more incidents like this is it going to take for people to wake up to the fact that the trans movement is led and populated by deranged, violent AGP men whose only “gender” issue is that they hate women?

Locking his students in the classroom and forcing them to listen to his life...the man is a DL legend!

This story has nothing to do with the demise of Michfest. It happened a year after the last Fest nowhere near it.

It would be interesting to have an honest story about why it actually closed. But I doubt we’ll actually get it. Lesbians and honesty and like oil and water.

R29 Go dilate ya mental cuntless wonder.

OP’s website is a homophobic site, but Michfest is something that will always have a special place in my heart.

My favorite is the story of the heifer who can’t get up from a deck chair and so had to be tipped over and crawl out.

The Land just needed a rest.

And after forty years of being pounded into compression by 300 lb lesbians, wouldn’t you?

As a fat womon would I be useful on murder detail?

WHET Nan Michiganwomyn?

But seriously wow, I can't believe this story was tied to Michfest. I remember reading about this triple murder when it happened, but never saw the follow-up about the motive. Just wow.

Thank you, r23, for elucidating my feelings.

[quote] OP’s website is a homophobic site

How?

R37 It isn't. Trannys lie...

On one hand... Interesting. OTOH, an article by that FAGGOT* Peter LaBarbera?

*Until he comes out and makes amends, this label applies.

I agree with R23; those Michfest were classics, but those ladies have every right to celebrate however they choose with whomever they choose on private property. I hope Sarah is still somewhere free, flying around in her Vagine Cape! Fly Sarah fly! Unlike those haters, you've got the real gear!

I do hope that the Michfest ladies have found a way to be get together and be themselves, somewhere private where they aren't harrassed, and frankly, bitches like us aren't snarking at them.

Yes, Michladies, we said some things that weren't entirely nice, but we said them with... something like love. Like if you talk shit about the wierd things your relatives do, they're still your family.

[quote]I always thought Michfest was a DL-created lez joke/meme/thing.

And I always thought that it was just republican'ts who willfully refuse to acquaint themselves with the reality around them.

Actually, I've never thought that.

But I've always know that lesbians were on the frontlines defending us during the AIDS crisis.

[quote] But I've always know that lesbians were on the frontlines defending us during the AIDS crisis.

Do you have a source for that?

Is there any reason they couldn’t have a another Fest in 2020?

What’s stopping them?

It’s common knowledge r44. Google “blood sister” and AIDS.

[quote]It’s common knowledge [R44]. Google “blood sister” and AIDS.

It's restated constantly by lesbians. There is no actual source to back up the claim though.

Gay men were the main caregivers during the Plague.

Ok r47 I guess the sources listed in the article don’t count FOR YOU. The rest of us can read dear.

From an actual source. Not the Radical Womyn's Collective.

Vice and UC Berkeley. Try again. Or don’t. You’re just proving yourself a fool.

It was gay men who fought the AIDS battle.

There were women, both gay and straight, but it was mostly men.

It was gay women who fought the marriage equality fight.

These should not be a divisive issues at this point.

The trannies have usurped gay culture and gay rights.

And yes, I see major misogyny here.

I doubt any of the Michfest womyn were caring for penised persons.

For a while, I thought that maybe the cross-sex hormones TIMs take were responsible, at least, in part for all their reprehensible behavior. And, then, I learned that only 7% of trans-identified men even bother taking hormones (fewer than 5% have any kind of genital surgery, including just amputation of the nuts). So, that theory went out the window. The fact that nearly every serial killer has had a penchant for wearing women’s clothing doesn’t seem incidental in the context of the unending accounts of TIMs murdering, raping, otherwise assaulting, stalking, harassing, etc women. That TIMs are convicted of sex crimes (against everyone) at higher rates than other men, also, doesn’t seem incidental. This looks more like a character profile than coincidence. I’m not sure why any woman shouldn’t be overtly “transphobic” when that translates into being fearful of men who have a higher than average statistical likelihood of raping and killing them. It’s, frankly, terrifying that TIM/TRA rhetoric is indistinguishable from that of MRAs and incels and much of the misogyny of far right fundamentalists and that their movement (aka War On Women and Gays) is funded by a coterie of billionaires who have staged a coup on all the major organizations that fought for gay rights and, in the US, women’s access to abortion. What kind of civil rights movement lionizes rapists, women beaters and “activists” who are genociding gay children? Why is the media supporting this? With the amount of money and influence ramming this ideology in and a strategy they’ve been fine tuning since the 1970s, is there any escape from their end game? Will people only wake up after is is far too late to fight back? Why are so many, who must understand the most basic factor of human biology, afraid to speak up?

The Demise of R53's return bar...

[quote]Is there any reason they couldn’t have a another Fest in 2020?

[quote]What’s stopping them?

The pandemic?

They could enforce social distancing by twirling their vagina capes if anyone gets too close.

All these posts and no mention of Denise?

Oddly enough, 'Denise' and 'demise' are only one letter apart.

All these posts and no mention of Denise?

I still see squirrels and think about "squirrels = death" like those rodents are mini harbingers of doom, however, since someone actually *did* get killed, it seemed inappropriate (even for DL)

Squirrels/Death wasn't Denise.

Squirrels/Death wasn't Denise.

Really? I could've sworn it was...or was Denise always the one trying to bum a ride?

Denise was the one offering the ride (Rainbow Express). Squirrels/Death was the woman with the kid. Denise was footloose and fancy free. Denise might be summed up as Weed/Pussy.

Rose was squirrels/death.

Is the trans troll vomiting up the same points over and over again?

Is the trans troll McKinnon/Ivy?

Sign me up for the cheese all contest gals!

Denise was a pothead and a menace on the road. God I miss her.

R64 You lost? We don't go for murder and trannys here.

I looked forward too the Michfest threads every year. Yes, they were goofy and silly but for a lot us gay men, we loved that our lesbian sisters had a place to get their freak on and have fun...and I'm sure so many of them rolled their eyes at the crazy rules as well.

Why are gay meh so stupid?

r70, Pointing out stupidity with poor spelling makes you look dumb.

& r64, Truth and facts are constants that often need repeating.

Were they vegan cheeseballs with no actual cheese product? Are ALL cheez balls vegan, with no actual cheese product?

I hope those gals have foiled the trannies and us, and all or some of them have found a way to get together for a private annual party.

R71 Why is R69 and R70 talking to himself, more to the point.

[quote]Do you have a source for that?

As I said r44, lesbians cared for my dear friend Carl as he declined and declined and declined and died.

His family wanted nothing to do with him and I was 5,000 miles away proving myself at a new job.

Is that source enough for you, you dominating bitch?

Also, How To Survive A Plague shows how many dykes were involved with ActUp.

Well, R74, it's somewhat better than the ones you posted. (Neither are official or academic)

That's the issue: the people I hear who keep repeating that 'lesbians were the main caregivers!!!' are lesbians.

And they usually use it with malice.

I miss the Michfest website more than Michfest.

I wish we could see the original 'I have stated my boundaries, Rainsong...'

Sadly, lost to time...

Michfest attendances had been falling consistently for a long time, so it wasn't just the trannies that killed it, though they did rush in like hyenas to bring down the weakened but still standing event. And lets not forget it was even more the fellow-travellers - it was the defining point when the proto-woke discovered the whole trans+ ensemble and embraced them.

They used trans women as an excuse. Which was nasty.

They made ticket holders double as staff. It's somewhat surprising it lasted as long as it did.

Damn! That woman's face could stop a flood.

You’re right r71.

Women don’t have penises.

Trans women are trans women

Trans men are trans men

Biological men shouldn’t be allowed in women’s sports

Thanks for the reminder!

r71, you don't know your DL history

Or, as I used to call it, “Bitchfest.”

What was the re-education camp called for penised youths? Camp Sunshine or some crap like that ?

r75, I guess you did not see the groundbreaking show Pose in which ACT UP would be nothing without brave trans women of color.

It was terrifying to think some of those women actually has sons (or pre-rapists as they called them)!

The Michfesters were right to keep it women born women, to be honest.

The trans women have every right to their own event, but clearly what they worried about came to fruition.

[quote]OP: A few months later, in November 2016, David Warfield/Dana Rivers went on to brutally batter, then stab, shoot, and burn two women who were long time Michfest attendees and their adopted son.

Battered, tenderized, and then fried?

But notice the refusal to identify a trans woman, even though a murderer, as a woman or grant her with the pronouns of "she" and "her."

I don't like crazies, but transphobia and shuffling male terms as an insult are what we have come to expect from the crazies HERE.

Thanks for your acknowledgement, R74. I didn't take care of your Carl, but I did take care of Tony in the mid 80s, a Greek man from Chicago, until he was almost dead and his bio family finally came and got him. It was heartbreaking, as the nurses wouldn't even come into his room to feed or clean him. I lost a lot of friends from my gay AA meeting that way; they were some of the sweetest and funniest men I've ever known. May they RIP.

Sorry to be so OT. BTW, I've never been to Michfest and never wanted to go.

"But notice the refusal to identify a trans woman, even though a murderer, as a woman or grant her with the pronouns of "she" and "her.""

Triple murderers can expect a bit of deliberate rudeness, and worse. They have shown themselves to be unworty of even common courtesy.

Trans “women” are men. Forcing people to lie about the self-evident isn’t a matter of manners, it’s non-consensual role play. You cannot force people to lie in a non-totalitarian state and it is anything but kind to humor the delusions of the mentally ill.

Those with money attend the Sappho International Women's Festival at - where else - Lesbos Island.

Does it require labor by ticket-holders?

I must have missed it, what was the motive for the murder?

I was a teen virgin closet gay during the crisis, and, via the Catholic school I went tom I worked with nearly nothing but lesbians on the North side of Chicago's ACT UP. Cleaning, feeding, advocating, holding hands with the dying. Bless our sisters born sisters.

r100, the same reason most women are murdered: for simply being women.

We've been in the midst of a global femicide crisis since March and not a single major Western news outlet has reported on it.

It was just never the same after the passing of its founder, James Coburn (pictured below at Fest):

Name one Black Lives Matter rally that has said the name of Dana Rivers’ victims.

Were the victims black?

If not, why would they be mentioned???

Yes, all three victims were Black. Two lesbians and their adopted Black son who was doing very well at school. You could have googled.

When I Googled it looked like one black woman and one white woman.

I fail to see how it see necessarily connects with BLM.

"But notice the refusal to identify a trans woman, even though a murderer, as a woman or grant her with the pronouns of 'she' and 'her.'"

So, you believe that 1.) "misgendering" is what we should be worried about here, rather than three human beings being brutally murdered (by yet another toxic white heterosexual male), and 2.) that it's no big whoop if male crimes are statistically attributed to women.

Allllllrighty, then.

People should be treated with dignity no matter what crime they're accused of.

It's not acceptable to call a gay man a f*g just because he's on trial.

"People should be treated with dignity no matter what crime they're accused of."

Or own president has proven that's not true!

And so have you, so stop standing up for a triple murderer, you toxie piece of deluded shit.

Absolutely no one said it was, R109, but just keep strawman-ing.

Is it acceptable to call a gay man a f*g just because he's on trail for murder?

The trans troll is such a fucking lunatic that he doesn’t realize the more he posts, the more he proves all of the GC arguments against allowing MTFs into women’s same sex spaces and reinforces the increasing understanding that men who want other people to pretend they’re women are dangerously mentally ill.

[quote]I fail to see how it see necessarily connects with BLM.

An interracial lesbian couple and their black son are murdered by a crazed white person, and you're confused as to why this might be of interest to BLM? Really?

BLM supports the 'deconstruction of the nuclear family' right on their website, and here we have an example of the modern, non-traditional family, who ended up being completely eradicated by an unhinged member of the Stunning and Brave™.

Oh, as a gay man I always tend to sympathize with trans women over anti-male womyn.

That’s definitely the case when it comes to Michfest and when it comes to not calling anyone something nobody should be called.

BLM, also, has in their manifesto an explicit prioritization of Black Trans “Women” over and to the exclusion of actual Black Women. The partner of one of the lesbian founders is LARPs being a man. While the groundswell of populist support for BLM has been largely genuine, the genesis of BLM, as a corporation, and the ideology and financial backing behind it, has been as cynical and deceptive as possible. Once again, no media in the supposedly neutral center or left wing is willing to investigate their inception. Everyone should have seen their lack of engagement on Breonna Taylor’s murder, the other notable murders of black women by police officers, the unforgivable maternal mortality rate of black women in the US, and complete silence about the 30k black women who go “missing” in the US every year as the red flags they are. Instead, they hype MTFs and other men who have been convicted of child molestation, rape and murder and propose defunding the only protection women have from rape and domestic violence. Again, the agenda to alchemize predators into martyrs appears in every arena that makes “trans rights” part of its platform. It’s entirely possible to argue for and devise logistics to end or reduce extra-judicial murders, qualified immunity and structural racism while also believing in science and that structural misogyny, including ambivalence about and cheerleading for violence enacted against women, should be resolutely condemned.

Where exactly in Michigan did this event happen?

We had a lot of fun with it here on DL, but it really pisses me off that women can't have a gathering just for themselves once a year without a bunch of assholes making it their mission to wreck it.

Threadly reminder that the mentally ill, woman-hating trans troll (R116 R117) is a pathetic, miserable loser with NO LIFE. He has written over 30 posts in this thread alone, meaning 1 in every 4.replies is coming from him.

Checking this troll's posting history (block him and then click on "Ignored") will show you that he is nothing but a deranged, homophobic tranny troll with extreme mommy issues that lead to a seething hatred towards women. He shows up in every single thread that is even remotely related to trans and does everything he can to either derail the discussion or shut down criticism.

Some gems from his posting history:

- Says that Bruce Jenner looks better than actual women

- Derailed a thread about a Moroccan tranny responsible for the suicides of multiple gay men

- Thinks little gay boys should be introduced to cross-dressing and drag

- Spends his entire time screeching about women (specially lesbians) and calling them "TERFs", "fish", "dykes", "cis", etc

- Believes all women are narcissists

- Claims that he came here for "Lucille Ball discussions", yet his posting history shows that he's just a pitiful troll

This is what crippling mental illness looks like, kids. FF and block him.

Same here, r120. They should have been able to have this to themselves.

There are Womyn's Lands all over the country.

They're all dying.

It's not because trans women keep wanting to move to them.

It's because NO ONE does.

What I don't understand is why some of these events close due to pressure from a small, vocal abusive minority. It's like what happened in Canada - I think Edmonton Pride last year or the year before.

Some group of 20 or 30 people were disrupting meetings and demanding all of this money and resources for them, so the Pride Committee just said - nope, no Pride then.

It's disgusting that MichFest closed due to this harassment. However, pay attention - Trans are doing this to a lot of Women, Gay and Lesbian groups and events.

This is just one example. They need to start this up again.

Michfest didn't close due to trans.

It closed due to declining attendance.

Correct, R124. Edmonton Pride was cancelled last year due to infighting and unrealistic demands. As was Pride in Auckland, New Zealand.

Wasn't Edmonton Pride's closure about the police not trans?

Look it up for yourself, pro-tranny troll. Not doing the work for you.

Okay. Looked it up. It was about the police. I was right.

R129 - no it fucking wasn't.

Edmonton Pride was run by.... all dykes!

Executive Director, Angela Bennett

Volunteer Coordinator, Nicole Craft

Board Member, Trish Willerton

Communications Officer, Stephanie Dickie

R131 is our resident gay man who bashes women and lesbians in every thread. Block him and see half this thread disappear.

R131 - you're only selecting a few female names - there were men too. Stop being such an asshole. The fact remains it was a vocal abusive minority group that got Edmonton pride cancelled, not police and not because it had women organizing it.

"Michfest didn't close due to trans. It closed due to declining attendance."

Just stop. We all know very well that the "declining attendance" had to do with the fact that both attendees and performers were harassed and threatened for years on end, both on social media and in "real life."

No, they weren't. There hadn't even been a protest near the Land since 2010. Because the local police and rangers were on the dykes side.

But, at least you admit attendance was declining.

[quote][R131] - you're only selecting a few female names - there were men too.

There the only names I found from a Facebook post following a quick Google.

But I bet after a more thorough search I can find the name of all the directors.

And we know they'll overwhelmingly be ciswomen.

R119 - This didn't happen in Oakland County, Michigan. It happened in east Oakland, California. Rivers is from Northern California originally.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Michfest other than Rivers was a trans organizer there. I read in a Reddit thread that cited the Sacramento Bee pre-news blackout that it involved a property dispute. It's not even clear if the couple ever attended the festival.

This is interesting. "The property on which Michfest took place is currently under contract for purchase by a nonprofit organization known as the We Want the Land Coalition.[21][22] The organization intends to make the land accessible to women who want to organize events on it. Smaller events are planned for the summer of 2019.[23]"

The fact that trannies set up a "Camp Trans" right next to Michfest for the express purpose of harassing women is pretty illustrative of the transactivist playbook: colonize and destroy. First they infiltrated and hijacked gay orgs, then they moved on to women and now they are doing it to black activism ("black trans lives matter").

Camp Trans hadn't existed for years prior to the final Michfest.

One of the most infamous incidents of harassment.

Pieces of paper are now harassment.

Oh, and they probably printed them themselves.

More on Denise and the Rainbow 🌈 Express:

I genuinely do not understand why trans "women" hate "cis" women so much. If they hate women, why do they want to be them? It makes no sense. What do they actually mean when they say "trans women are women"? What does "women" even mean in that context? I'm not asking this rhetorically - I honestly don't understand. I've pointed out several times that if "woman" means "someone who identifies as a woman" the word has no meaning, because the definition is circular. I've never been given an answer.

Everyday you walk down the street you identity people as women without ever seeing their genitals, R143.

I've ALWAYS said this: I think the trans community needs to have its own movement. Yes it's adjacent to the gay movement but gender identity is its primary purpose, with sexual orientation being a secondary or even tertiary aspect

R144 - I can walk down the street in good drag - it doesn't make me a woman. I can also walk down the street dressed as an older man - it doesn't make me a senior and it doesn't qualify me for social security benefits.

Trans women are not women. They are trans women. Nothing wrong with that - you have to love who you are and not try to pretend to be something you're not.

People will accept you if you declare yourself as a transperson. That's truthful and honest. But people can't respect when you say you're something you are not - that reads false and it's offensive.

THAT is what the trans community needs to get through their heads. Stop attacking women, gays, lesbians, and trying to force people to believe you are something you are biologically not.

I really don't care, do u?

Trannys are cuntless wonders. And awful.

You British dykes would hate Michfest if you were ever actually there. Even with the transphobia, US lesbians are much more left-wing.

Dimwit at r94. Rivers is not a woman and he is certainly not a lesbian. He's a man, a woman-hating, woman-murdering man. He claims to be a woman because he hates women so much he can't stand the idea that he can't control the definition of woman, just like he demanded that lesbians should not be permitted to do anything that he could not be part of, so he had to destroy something that many lesbians enjoyed.

He should not be allowed anywhere near a women's prison and the fact that it's not known what kind of sentence he got, or where he is and that there seems to be some kind of cover up is disturbing - especially since in California trans prisoners are housed according to their "gender identity". Men who murder women should not be in women's prisons.

It’s a hate crime to murder a man who claims he’s a woman, but it’s not a hate crime to murder actual women.

[quote] I can walk down the street in good drag - it doesn't make me a woman.

If everyone treats you as a woman, then, yes, you are one. This point is interesting because I believe effeminate straight men can sometimes be victims of homophobia for the same reasons. Straight men experience more homophobia than dykes anyway.

[quote]I can also walk down the street dressed as an older man - it doesn't make me a senior and it doesn't qualify me for social security benefits.

You could say the same about adoptive parents.

R144, I identify people's sex by looking at them precisely because humans are sexually dimorphic, meaning men and women have different bone structure, voices, etc. There's a trans "woman" who lives in my neighbourhood and wears make-up, skirts and high heels every day. It's still very clear that he's not a woman.

A very very few young FtMs can pass as very young men until they talk, but no MtFs pass even a hundred feet away. And the whole lot radiates C R A Z Y. Because they are.

I'm a 5'4' white male with a high voice and feminine features. If I wanted to pass as a woman I think I could.

God knows I've seen plenty of butch dykes who I have mistaken for men.

I was even convinced Michfest's founder was James Coburn.

R153 - What the fuck? Adoptive parents and adopted children do not claim to be biologically related!

And no - just because you wear a dress and others play along - it still does not make you a woman.

A 50 year old gay man wearing an Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirt and a backwards baseball cap also does not make him a 20 something straight bro.

Your biology has nothing to do with your clothing choices. You have some seriously fucked up logic.

R155 A lot of female to male transgender people pass quite well after being on testosterone for ten+ years.

Oftentimes the only giveaway is their height.

[quote]What the fuck? Adoptive parents and adopted children do not claim to be biologically related!

Some children are never told.

But they do claim to be parents. Adoptive children refer to their adoptive parents as just their parents usually.

Most trans women don't claim to have XX chromosomes.

Disagree that FtMs ever pass.

They always look like they're playing dress up as men.

But someone like Laverne Cox looks as much like a real woman as Wendy Williams.

For fuck's sake, STOP feeding the mentally ill, homophobic, woman-hating tranny troll (see: R121). He is a LOSER with NO LIFE - riling people up is the only thing he has.

The point is: woman is as much as social role as parent is.

Who you actually regard as your parent, who raised you, who you call Dad or Mom is more important than biology.

[quote] A lot of female to male transgender people pass quite well after being on testosterone for ten+ years.

I agree. They assimilate. It’s the MtF she-hulks who have a problem.

R158 they don't have cocks, you fucking moron.

R159 - what the hell does that have to do with trans? You make no sense, man. No sense at all. One could call it nonsense.

The trancels are incapable of orgasm and want everyone else to go without, too.

Men produce sperm. Women release eggs. It doesn’t matter what anyone wears, what plastic surgery they have, what cancer causing chemical they pump their bodies with, what semantic insanity they attempt to force on the general public. Men will never and can never be women and women can never and will never be men. And no one really believes that anyone with a cock is female nor that anyone without a vagina is a woman, even if they unkindly humor your delusion to the contrary. No gay man will ever want to have sex with a woman (even if she’s bald and has had her tits amputated) and no lesbians is ever going to want to fuck a psycho who gets a boner from wearing his daughter’s panties.

Most lesbians have had sex with men so...

Not all FTMs assimilate. They were still socialized as girls, and they could look like the most manly men, but their gestures and body language give a lot of them away. Women are taught to be accommodating and to smile, be nice. They can pump themselves with T but the smiley niceness remains.

The opposite, R168. In their attempt to prove their manliness they usually try to act like boorish teenage boys -- their idea of what a man is.

[quote]I agree. They assimilate. It’s the MtF she-hulks who have a problem.

No, FtMs don't assimilate. They are not men and never will be. No gay man wants to be forced to have sex with one.

You can't assimilate away biological reality.

FtMs are women.

They don’t assimilate at all. They don’t have dicks.

"But someone like Laverne Cox looks as much like a real woman as Wendy Williams."

This has to be the most back-handed compliment I've ever seen on DL (and that's really saying something), as Wendy has had so much work done that she barely resembles a human anymore, never mind a woman.

"The point is: woman is as much as social role as parent is."

Funny how you never hear anyone saying, "Man is as much a social role as parent is," huh? Gee, why is that?

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